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this hopefully will be the start to a new interesting discussion. the family trees/tables you will see below, where designed by me a few years ago (approx in the year 2006). the four trees show: 1: the eldar 2: the edain 3: kings of numenor 4: kings of arnor and gondor, stewards, princes of dol amroth and kings of rohan today i can't remember all sources i used at the time of creating, but some things are still in my mind: the "tale of years", which accompanies the trees was taken from wikipedia. it might not be completely correct (but hopefully is). the stories next to the trees are also wikipedia articles. i've not choosen them for a particular reason, but (i think) just for the amount of space needed for them, because i wanted to fill up all the remaining space. the tale of years however is included in the correct family trees. days before sun and moon in table 1 the 1st age in table 2 the 2nd age in table 3 the 3rd age in table 4 and before i show you the trees just one more addition: many big thanks have to go to John Wain for helping me to convert the trees (originally excel-documents). in the end i didn't have to use his creations but managed, with the help of his description and a little more computer-power, to make them into pictures myself. nonetheless, once again: thank you very much ! so here is TABLE 1 THE ELDAR (AND THE TALE OF YEARS PART I)  TABLE 2 THE EDAIN (AND THE TALE OF YEARS PART II)  TABLE 3 THE KINGS OF NÚMENOR (AND THE TALE OF YEARS PART III)  TABLE 4 THE KINGS OF ARNOR AND GONDOR, STEWARDS OF GONDOR, PRINCES OF DOL AMROTH AND KINGS OF ROHAN (AND THE TALE OF YEARS PART IV) >> this seems to be to big to upload. i will have to split it up into two within the next days, but please forgive me if it will take some time. the others will hopefully be enough for discussion for some time. i wish us all a lot of fun studying and discussion them! update information is always welcome !
- "the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT "...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton "you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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some addition information:
the "box" for each character consists of:
1. the name by which the character is usually known
2. other known names
3. title/position of the character
4. time in which the title/position was used
5. dates of birth and death, if known
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"the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT
"...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain
"power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton
"you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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They seem good, but unfortunately I can't see them... The site which they're on can't be accessed from my computer.
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Aeglos wrote:They seem good, but unfortunately I can't see them... The site which they're on can't be accessed from my computer. i'm sorry for that. but if you want the pictures or pdf's i could send them to you via email if you like
- "the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT "...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton "you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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Rank: Advanced Member
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and here (in two parts) TABLE 4 THE KINGS OF ARNOR AND GONDOR, STEWARDS OF GONDOR, PRINCES OF DOL AMROTH AND KINGS OF ROHAN (AND THE TALE OF YEARS PART IV) the two parts overlap a little bit so you can easily put them together PART ONE OF TWO  PART TWO OF TWO 
- "the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT "...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton "you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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This must have been quite some work. unfortunatly I can't watch them now. But I will do it soon
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A lot of nice work there Telco! I've really only looked at table one so far -- especially after I figured out how to adjust my computer to see it better -- but I have a few comments.
I would have done some things differently, but certain differences are really only 'canon based' and so would not be corrections but differences of opinion. I'll comment on some of the nomenclature in any case, again according to my opinion.
I would write Maedhros the Tall (this seems more natural English to me, anyway), and Beren Camlost rather.
In the late text Eldarin Hands, Fingers And Numerals And Related Writings it looks as though Tolkien was possibly revising Erchamion 'One handed' to Erchamon 'One-hand Man' (unless both were intended to stand together in the tales), with Camlost 'empty-handed'. Of course Erchamion is not wrong, I'm just noting the late, alternate form, in case you haven't seen it and might want to use it.
This raises the question: to stay with the one volume Silmarillion in all matters, or to employ the larger Silmarillion? Erchamion is more well known for example, but so too would be Orodreth as Galadriel's brother, or Gil-galad as the son of Fingon. This question also relates to the names of Feanor's sons from The Shibboleth of Feanor.
I understand using the names from The Silmarillion, as they are more recognizable, but technically, mixing them with The Shibboleth of Feanor results in a conflation of ideas. I would do a pure Shibboleth version, which would affect the names of the coppery haired, or red-haired sons, but that's just the way I would go.
And actually one could argue with this choice, as Maedron appears to be the latest form in any case. As I like to put it: Tolkien was not against revision!
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thank you for your comments Galin.
as i always appreciate them, i've also taken them into consideration this time.
let me just add what i think of them.
i agree with you on Maedhros the Tall and certainly also on Beren Camlost. "Gamlost" might have been a writing mistake or another source i can't remember now, but also foster's complete guide to middle-earth (one of my most important sources) shows the spelling "Camlost". also the use of both Erchamion and Erchamon is interesting. i decided to include both in the tree. could you probably inform me on where to find the "eldarin hands"-text, because i currently can't remember that i ever heard of it?
the orodreth/gil-galad/finrod-problem has already been discussed somewhere elso on this forum lately. i will remain with this later ("unofficial", i.e. non-silmarillion but HoME) version that is currently shown in the family tree.
concerning the mixing of names of the silmarillion and the shibboleth: i originally decided to include all name-versions in one tree, but (as i discribed above) seperating them by writing the most common (silmarillion) name in the top line, and adding other variations below. i certainly will not change this concept, because i like it very much, but i also understand what you mean when suggesting to make two tree-versions.
and what do you mean concering Maedron? i've never before noticed this version of Maedhros name. can you also tell me your source of this name-version?
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"the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT
"...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain
"power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton
"you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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The name 'Maedron' only appears once in the HoMe 12, in Note 2 to the text 'The Problem of Ros', but as far as I am concerned, I think Tolkien, though apparently dissatisfied with the possible interpretations of the ending '-ros' in 'Maedros', was only trying out ideas without giving them much weight.
Tolkien maniac collection! - Amazon (a list that I made for people much interested in Tolkien works and studies)
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telco wrote: (...) could you probably inform me on where to find the "eldarin hands"-text, because i currently can't remember that i ever heard of it? It was published in two parts in Vinyar Tengwar 47, 48. Sorry, I should have noted that. Quote:the orodreth/gil-galad/finrod-problem has already been discussed somewhere elso on this forum lately. i will remain with this later ("unofficial", i.e. non-silmarillion but HoME) version that is currently shown in the family tree. I agree and would do the same. Christopher Tolkien had different concerns in making a one volume Silmarillion. Quote: concerning the mixing of names of the silmarillion and the shibboleth: i originally decided to include all name-versions in one tree, but (as i discribed above) seperating them by writing the most common (silmarillion) name in the top line, and adding other variations below. i certainly will not change this concept, because i like it very much, but i also understand what you mean when suggesting to make two tree-versions. Apologies Telco -- my fault, by the time I got around to posting, I had totally forgotten your earlier explanation. In case anyone's wondering, the Sindarin names for the first and last two of Feanor's sons, according to The Shibboleth of Feanor, are Maedros, Amros (Sindarin for Quenya Ambarussa) and Amros Amarthan. The form Maedhros had a different derivation. Also, had Amarthan lived (in this version he dies at Losgar), the name Ambarto would probably have been Sindarized as Amrod.Quote: and what do you mean concering Maedron? i've never before noticed this version of Maedhros name. can you also tell me your source of this name-version? Yes, in note 2 to The Problem Of ROS (The Peoples of Middle-Earth) CJRT refers to a 'later note' in which JRRT declares he will change Maedros to Maedron.
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Thanks Telco, if you can get around to it, I would be interested in looking at the tables in some of my spare time.
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You should not post your email publicly, Aeglos. You'd better post it in a PM, because everybody can see these forums, even non-members. Anyhow, I also like telco's idea of having name variations on the same table. The information about the 'Eldar hands' is worth noting. I just hope to get some spare money and be able to purchase them.
Tolkien maniac collection! - Amazon (a list that I made for people much interested in Tolkien works and studies)
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John Wain wrote:
Anyhow, I also like telco's idea of having name variations on the same table. The information about the 'Eldar hands' is worth noting. I just hope to get some spare money and be able to purchase them.
i purchased the vinyar tengwar collected editions some time ago, i.e. vol 1-4, that is VT1-40. unfortunately VT50 has not been published yet, so the collected vol.5 is not complete yet. you can get the collected vol41-49, but i wanted to wait till VT50 will be included, so unfortunately i currently can't look up the eldarin-hands text. by the way: has anyone an idea when VT50 will be published. it is now some time since the last volumes publication.
- "the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT "...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton "you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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John Wain wrote:The name 'Maedron' only appears once in the HoMe 12, in Note 2 to the text 'The Problem of Ros', but as far as I am concerned, I think Tolkien, though apparently dissatisfied with the possible interpretations of the ending '-ros' in 'Maedros', was only trying out ideas without giving them much weight. This may be true, but it's hard to know; and due to the ambiguity of the wording in note two, the note on Maedron isn't necessarily connected to Tolkien's text concerning ros (the specific note to the text has Tolkien rather stating that Maedros is now so long established it would be difficult to alter). For another example, there is only one marginal note concerning the drastic reduction in Balrog numbers. Many readers seem to take this one note (with its revision) to argue that only as many as seven Balrogs ever existed, despite that Tolkien himself did not correct every later mention of very many Balrogs. Anyway... The Problem Of ROSWhen Tolkien set out to solve the problem of ros the main* problem (as far as JRRT was concerned) was that in Sindarin there were these two words of the same sound and form with unconnectable meanings. At this point it had already been decided that -ros found in Maedros, Amros (of the new conception) was a 'red' or 'russet' word. The other ros meant 'foam, dew, spray' (found in Elros 'Starlit foam' for example). The meaning of both words remained, and the attempted solution was to say that the ros meaning 'foam, spray' was not to be Eldarin but Beorian. It was to become a mannish word -- the other word could stay Eldarin and there would be no two homophonic elements in Sindarin -- or at least not these two, I mean. This failed however, because the word Andros 'long foam' had already been published in an Eldarin context. But we see that the solution (specifically) did not concern the element in Maedros or Amros, nor alter the meaning of either word in any event. It's possible that Maedron represents a later 'solution' to try to do away with the russet word, but in my opinion we don't have enough context to certainly know if this represents the lifting out of this idea entirely. _______________ *the secondary problem was that both words were too reminiscent of other words in Primary World languages, but Tolkien seems generally ready to accept this, and notes it as the lesser difficulty.
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Telco, long ago I found the Vinyar Tengwar for sale on this page: Lulu.comand I remember having read there - but now I can't remember where - that there will be no No. 5, and that all issues from 50 and on will be published separately. It may be, since I can't trace my sources, that I am wrong, but I don't think so. Galin, the problem of Balrogs is in a way easier to understand. While early conceptions had 'a thousand', it seems highly unlikely that 1000 Balrogs can be true. Because if we took only the cases of the Balrog of Moria, who was unmatched by any other than a Maia, or the Lord Gothmog, that managed to kill two High Kings of great power and a third warrior, we get to the situation where we can only imagine what 1000 of these creatures would have done. I guess Beleriand would have been conquered on the spot and without much drama. It was a natural solution and - while this is purely speculation, I agree - Tolkien must have seen it and consequently changed the number to only 7. As for the name, it is of course trickier and less easily discernible. And we also know that for Tolkien, regardless of what he stated, nothing was hard to alter unless it was already published. Otherwise, since Maedros was not in any of the published works, changing it to 'Maedron' would not be impossible or even improbable. However if we only get this name once, it is my personal impression that it was either a passing thought, or a thought he never got round to implementing. In which case, we should take the long standing name to be the one we should use. Else, shouldn't we also conclude that the 'corrected' version of 'Amros' is 'Amron', if the stem for 'red', 'russet' is *RON?
Tolkien maniac collection! - Amazon (a list that I made for people much interested in Tolkien works and studies)
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John Wain wrote:Telco, long ago I found the Vinyar Tengwar for sale on this page: Lulu.comand I remember having read there - but now I can't remember where - that there will be no No. 5, and that all issues from 50 and on will be published separately. It may be, since I can't trace my sources, that I am wrong, but I don't think so. thanks for the information John. i already know about lulu.com . also i know that via http://www.elvish.org/ (the website of the ELF) there is a volume 5b available (VT41-49), which is planned to be completed as volume 5 when VT50 will be published . (all volumes you buy via the ELF-website are in the end sold by lulu.com)
- "the invention of languages is the foundation. the 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse" JRRT "...The Silmarillion was not intended to be a historical book, but a novel where the different tales become legendary and not ordinary. Knowing it does not mean being aware of the actions of coutless people from the past, but understanding the superb imagination of only one writer, reflected through the deeds of these heroes. ... Those who criticize it ... stumble on words, whithout having the power to understand and appreciate this splendid work of J.R.R.Tolkien" John Wain "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. great men are almost always bad men..." Lord Acton "you show what you're like when you can do what you like"
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John Wain wrote: Galin, the problem of Balrogs is in a way easier to understand. While early conceptions had 'a thousand', it seems highly unlikely that 1000 Balrogs can be true. Because if we took only the cases of the Balrog of Moria, who was unmatched by any other than a Maia, or the Lord Gothmog, that managed to kill two High Kings of great power and a third warrior, we get to the situation where we can only imagine what 1000 of these creatures would have done. I guess Beleriand would have been conquered on the spot and without much drama. Balrogs being too powerful seems like a good reason; but then again, in the early 1950s at least, Tolkien still imagined very many Balrogs existed (after The Lord of the Rings was written but not yet published). Quote: However if we only get this name once, it is my personal impression that it was either a passing thought, or a thought he never got round to implementing. In which case, we should take the long standing name to be the one we should use. Else, shouldn't we also conclude that the 'corrected' version of 'Amros' is 'Amron', if the stem for 'red', 'russet' is *RON? I don't know that we can conclude this but I have wondered the same thing (although my base was *RUN as Q. russa 'red-haired', Sindarin ros(s) 'red haired, copper coloured', hails from (U)RUS). Tolkien imagined a stem RUN 'red, glowing' (most often applied to things like embers), noting also the attested name Urundil 'copper-lover', but maybe with some shifting... Still, Maedron could exist alongside Amros too. Tolkien could be quite inventive with his nomenclature; how many Tolkien fans (including those well studied in the languages) correctly guessed the meaning and derivation of Thranduil or Asfaloth before Tolkien's ideas were revealed? My favorite sounding version is Maedhros in any case.
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The tables are excellent, Telco! Many thanks.
Perhaps you're right John. But if I'm allowed to be stupid enough to have Facebook, maybe I can be foolish enough to post my email publicly elsewhere. I've removerd it, though :)
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^ I also made a Facebook account, and already start to regret it, because I don't feel there is anything that I would like to share, and people of which I never even heard would like to become 'friends'. But as far as I know, you can't contact someone through Facebook; that is, you can send a friend request, but you can't send personal mails because the email is not available.
Tolkien maniac collection! - Amazon (a list that I made for people much interested in Tolkien works and studies)
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You can send messages through Facebook. There's also a chat option for friends, but... Aah well I suppose it's okay so long as you don't spend too much time on it.
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